tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post1636663883079617257..comments2024-03-15T17:06:31.642-05:00Comments on The Piety That Lies Between: A Progressive Christian Perspective: ELCA Vote for Greater Inclusivity Stirs Up a StormEric Reitanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-22556907334595917062009-08-23T07:33:43.798-05:002009-08-23T07:33:43.798-05:00Greg Boyd discussed this in his blog as well:
ht...Greg Boyd discussed this in his blog as well:<br /><br />http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/did-god-send-a-tornado-to-warn-the-elca/Paprika https://www.blogger.com/profile/01650640416865438605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-49863033967549096192009-08-21T18:00:19.319-05:002009-08-21T18:00:19.319-05:00CrackleDawg,
Thanks for the further development o...CrackleDawg,<br /><br />Thanks for the further development of your ideas.<br /><br />The point I was making was this: whether or not you think Piper's interpretation of events in Minneapolis is even POSSIBLY true depends on how you conceive of God's moral character and what behavior you take to be consistent with such a character. <br /><br />And so, before we can say that Piper's interpretation of events is possibly true, we need to address these more basic issues. And then I noted briefly that given my own take on these more basic issues, I cannot endorse the claim that Piper's account is even possibly true. <br /><br />You have, in reply, sketched your own views on these more basic issues and indicated that given THESE views, you think it might be consistent with God's moral character to send a tornadic storm through the northern midwest, causing damage hither and yon (not just in Minnesota but in other states), entirely for the sake of warning the ELCA delegates in one of the damaged buildings against voting a certain way.<br /><br />But to settle this deeper dispute, we would need to look more deeply at God's character, the concept of divine justice, its relation to divine love, and its implication for the kind of behavior Piper attributes to God. <br /><br />In fact, a colleague and I have taken up a study of this kind in relation to whether the doctrine of hell is consistent with the divine character. But since I can't do justice to these issues in a comment, I won't try. <br /><br />But I do want to ask other readers what they think of the idea that divine justice might warrant a divine act of the sort Piper describes. The defender of this view would, it seems to me, have to confront some issues of distributive justice (since many people unrelated to the ELCA were impacted by this act). And then, of course, there's the problem of justifying an act that does harm for the sake of the message it supposedly communicates, when the act's message (or lack thereof) is so utterly open to interpretation.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-88047769405438351742009-08-21T15:13:30.172-05:002009-08-21T15:13:30.172-05:00For the sake of the argument, let's say I am a...For the sake of the argument, let's say I am a morally perfect parent. If this is true, then I must warn my child not to run into the street when I see they are contemplating it. To not do so is to endanger my child's life and thus be immoral. <br /><br />Further, you left out a key trait of God's: perfect justice. If he is morally perfect, then his standards are infallible. If this is so he may mete out penalties as he sees fit in order to uphold his justice. His penalties would be just because he is morally perfect. <br /><br />In the example above if, in spite of my warning, my child runs into the street, I must take action. To not do so would be immoral as, again, I would be endangering my child's life. I am just asking that we consider <i>the possibility</i> the tornado was God telling the ELCA not to run into the street. <br /><br />If we are to contemplate God's moral perfection and his perfect love we must also deal with the fact that he is perfectly just. To not do so is inconsistent with his moral perfection and his perfect love.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17335360263851596431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-42430483913158219402009-08-21T14:51:08.369-05:002009-08-21T14:51:08.369-05:00CrackleDawg,
My point is that Piper has no good r...CrackleDawg,<br /><br />My point is that Piper has no good reason to foist this interpretation on events, even if it IS possible.<br /><br />But I wonder at the sense of "possible" that you're invoking. If you mean "possible" merely in the way that my sprouting wings and flying right now is possible--then you MAY be right. <br /><br />But I'm not even sure about that. The orthodox Christian understanding of God holds that God is what He is necessarily, and that God is perfecty good and perfectly loving. If this is right, then it is simply not POSSIBLE for God to behave in ways that fall short of moral perfection and perfect love. <br /><br />So, whether it is even possible that Piper is right depends on whether behavior of the sort Piper attributes to God is consistent with moral perfection and perfect love. Personally, I think not.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-38762512705700703802009-08-21T13:40:17.747-05:002009-08-21T13:40:17.747-05:00There is also at least the possibility that Piper ...There is also at least <i>the possibility</i> that Piper is right.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17335360263851596431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-47488668746283251252009-08-21T13:19:24.760-05:002009-08-21T13:19:24.760-05:00Great post - love it! Yeah, I've been pretty ...Great post - love it! Yeah, I've been pretty pissed at those trees myself for years. Used to pass them on the freeway all the time. They had it coming.C.P.O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16880429004171251097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-13970680590864632702009-08-21T12:46:47.543-05:002009-08-21T12:46:47.543-05:00I hang my head in shame. Yes--it was a fig tree.I hang my head in shame. Yes--it was a fig tree.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-32329373563214183492009-08-21T12:04:44.848-05:002009-08-21T12:04:44.848-05:00"Jesus did, after all, curse an olive tree&qu..."Jesus did, after all, curse an olive tree"<br /><br />I didn't think I gave a fig about Biblical "literalism"......but I think it was a fig tree.<br /><br />Excellent post! Bring on the agape!Steven Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07677314285938844360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-3221319889940217372009-08-21T10:43:52.437-05:002009-08-21T10:43:52.437-05:00A very eloquent response. Thank you.A very eloquent response. Thank you.Craighttp://simuleustisetpecator.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com