tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post5194001615567952815..comments2024-03-15T17:06:31.642-05:00Comments on The Piety That Lies Between: A Progressive Christian Perspective: Mangling Me at The Jesus Creed...Eric Reitanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-86072256202106753462011-07-13T05:06:13.874-05:002011-07-13T05:06:13.874-05:00[continued from above]
If the symmetric story abo...[continued from above]<br /><br />If the symmetric story above holds, then the non-universalist will be right to claim that people enter and remain in hell because of their free choice. The (a)-type choice they made was to systematically put so much distance between themselves and Christ that they made it metaphysically impossible for themselves to ever freely choose to leave hell. They have become natural (and in that sense contented) hell inhabitants. Hell is hellish only from the point of view of the saved; for its inhabitants it’s the natural environment that accords with their nature. I understand this is the general view that C. S. Lewis and Richard Swinburne expound. <br /><br />I think that the above story is not far from the truth. It describes the human condition fairly well, and also upholds justice, respect of one’s freedom, and personal responsibility for one’s lot. According to this story, those who arrive in heaven do so after having traveled a long path knowing exactly what they are doing to themselves. And the same goes for those who arrive in hell. I nevertheless think that the story above is not true, because I take it God chooses to go beyond justice and respect, because God’s love is lavish and wasteful and overflows all limits, including those of reason. God’s incarnation and sacrifice in Jesus tells us, among many other things, one thing in particular: That God’s love will not stop at anything and will keep looking for the one last lost sheep, and for the one last lost coin. It’s not only that God’s offer of salvation is a standing offer, but that God, like an unrequited lover, will keep trying to charm and win over the last of His/Her children until they are all in His/Her bosom. If God incarnated once (for all we know) in our world, God will incarnate a thousand times in hell if there are people in there. (I don’t consider God’s incarnation to be an event in history, but an act of creation.) For all human condition is sustained by God, so it’s not like that for God the unrighteous are further away than the righteous. Indeed God’s love for the unrighteous is even brighter, because it is less deserved. Like a good shepherd, or like a good master, God has an easy and friendly relationship with those creatures that remain close to Him/Her, but God’s attention and work and longing is for those who are lost.Dianelos Georgoudishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09925591703967774000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-68668878383352686522011-07-13T05:02:43.097-05:002011-07-13T05:02:43.097-05:00Eric,
As you know I agree with universalism, ind...Eric, <br /><br />As you know I agree with universalism, indeed I believe that understanding universalism is central to understanding theism – for somebody who does not see the truth of universalism fails to understand something fundamental about the nature of God, namely the kind of love God is. <br /><br />Nevertheless I would like here to suggest that the idea (a) that some people may at some point freely choose to be alienated for ever has more merit than you allow in your post. Actually there is perhaps little difference between (a) and (b) in the sense that some people may at some point make a free choice that would make it metaphysically impossible for them to later freely accept God’s standing offer of atonement. <br /><br />I’d like to start by pointing out that what we are, what kind of persons we are, is not fixed but is a dynamic thing. Loving, having trust in God, and in general doing what Christ asks of us, sanctifies us, and thus transforms our very being into becoming more like Christ. It is plausible to think that at some point that process of transformation brings us to a state of sanctification where it is not anymore metaphysically possible that we shall fall. We shall be caught in God’s orbit as it were. That experiential state may be called “being in heaven”. While completely free to sin, it will be metaphysically impossible for us to sin – in the same way that even though I am now completely free to choose to drive my face through the computer monitor in front of me, it is in fact impossible that I will choose to do so. <br /><br />Now, conversely, to hate, to be distrustful of God or even to despise God, and in general doing the opposite of what Christ asks of us, debases us, and thus transforms our very being into becoming less like Christ. In such a state sinning becomes more natural, and thus more probable. It is plausible to think that at some point that process of transformation brings us to a state of depravity where it becomes metaphysically impossible to repent, to change our mind and look back to God. We shall have escaped God’s attractive force as it were. That experiential state may be called “being in hell”, i.e. being in a state of permanent alienation from God. <br /><br />[continued bellow]Dianelos Georgoudishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09925591703967774000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-61781263403156724132011-07-11T13:20:48.018-05:002011-07-11T13:20:48.018-05:00Prof. Reitan - a separate post would be excellent,...Prof. Reitan - a separate post would be excellent, but I don't mean to encourage you to roll out a long unilateral defense of universalism against conditionalism - I hope you will at least take note of bits of writing by Revs. Isaac Watts, Edmund Law, or Francis Blackburne (all 18th century), and of Archbishop Richard Whately and Rev. Edward White (19th).<br /><br />I mention these names only because conditionalism is too often given short shrift as an isolated view of late American sects like the Adventists and the Witnesses - although those two groups did benefit by the appeal of the view in the eyes of those who saw as many moral and logical problems with universalism as with eternal Hells.John Anngeisterhttp://detheologized.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-22502003885590132702011-07-11T06:58:03.655-05:002011-07-11T06:58:03.655-05:00Eric--I know Stephen and his blog, and I agree tha...Eric--I know Stephen and his blog, and I agree that he writes very well. Hadn't seen the recent piece you link to, but got a chance to look at it this morning. It's nicely done.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-23788071826899928632011-07-10T08:41:27.345-05:002011-07-10T08:41:27.345-05:00John,
For a number of interconnected reasons, I ...John, <br /><br />For a number of interconnected reasons, I don't think the view you sketch out here is a good fit with the Christian worldview, although it might fit well within certain other spiritual/religious frameworks of thinking. But explaining why would take more time than I have at the moment. But it seems like a good topic for a future blog post.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-65028159693273318492011-07-10T08:38:49.884-05:002011-07-10T08:38:49.884-05:00Burk: It iIS an explicit premise of one of our arg...Burk: It iIS an explicit premise of one of our arguments that, once saved, a person would not choose alienation from God. <br /><br />This is not, however, a mere assumption. In fact, on the view of freedom that we argue fits best with a broadly Christian worldview, and given the Christian view of salvation (immediate experiential relationship with the ultimate good from which all other goods flow, and full understanding that one is thus related) we argue that no truly free creature would ever freely choose to abandon this relational state. In other words: no, confirmation in blessedness is not, within a Christian philosophical framework, incompatible with freedom, but is rather what a free creature would choose.<br /><br />And keep in mind, Burk, that this argument (and the new book as a whole) is dialectical in Aristotle's sense: it adopts a framework of premises likely to be accepted by the target audience in order to show what is and isn't consistent with that framework, what follows from allegiance to it, etc. In other words, we are not here making the case for the Christian worldview but rather speaking to those who accept that worldview and arguing that a certain common belief held within that framework is not a good fit.Eric Reitanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135739290199272992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-28295085906231526912011-07-09T12:49:31.934-05:002011-07-09T12:49:31.934-05:00This whole argument (on both sides) requires the p...This whole argument (on both sides) requires the postulate of an automatic or naturally immortal soul - do you have a prolegomenon which addresses and refutes the possibility that immortality is not our right by material birth but requires an immaterial birth - i.e. must be acquired by actual relationship with an eternal reality - God?<br /><br />Because if an honest attempt at relation with the eternal God is a pre-requisite for immortality, the choice would have to come before the dissolution of the material mind of the choice-maker.<br /><br />This is called conditional immortality, and it has been held by enough good minds to deserve consideration I think. <br /><br />Your need to bend over backward to be 'fair' to the atheist is commendable, but in the conditional scenario there is no eternal sufferiing, the atheist simply 'gets' exactly what he/she expects - nothing, non-existence (death).<br /><br />Eric R., your thoughts?John Anngeisterhttp://detheologized.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-38334028581436380952011-07-09T09:28:52.205-05:002011-07-09T09:28:52.205-05:00Just thought you might be interested in a fellow b...Just thought you might be interested in a fellow blogger with similar interests (who writes exceedingly well, in my opinion).<br /><br />http://undeception.com/sinners-in-the-hands-of-a-____-god/<br /><br />Blessings!Eric Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03201490337520769596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-77390903775307425182011-07-09T09:28:11.913-05:002011-07-09T09:28:11.913-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Eric Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03201490337520769596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6215077578479252542.post-54026986312979064172011-07-08T18:49:43.888-05:002011-07-08T18:49:43.888-05:00It sounds as though you assume that salvation is a...It sounds as though you assume that salvation is a one-way ratchet, and once "saved", a person would never chose to go back to the other state, or perhaps be allowed to. Is that true, and isn't this a total loss of freedom, which might not seem like such a great deal?Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.com